Johann-Dietrich Wörner , 德国宇航研究院
Release Date: 2009-05-13
Having been President of the Technical University of Darmstadt for nearly 12 years, you took up the post of Chairman of DLR in March 2007. What does the selection of a person with your background, rather than someone who spent his entire career in the aerospace industry, say about the scope of activities of the German Aerospace Center?I think that you should better ask this question to the people who selected the Chairman. In fact, at the same time DLR is a research centre, the German space agency, and a project management organization. At the top of such an institution, it is important to have somebody who is able to manage science and administration at the same time rather than having a dedicated scientist. Even if you would take a scientist to head DLR, you would then have to decide whether to select somebody from aeronautics, space, energy, transport or from security, so you would have to choose anyhow. In a sense it is logical to take none of these groups in order to have no interference between the Chairman and any of these different aspects.
You have been a member of the Senate of DLR since 2002. What still surprised you when you took up your current position?
There were no big surprises about the content of our activities and the way in which we work. What was new for me, of course, is the active role that DLR plays in the international framework. Universities are playing a role as a partner with other universities while DLR is mainly carrying national interest towards the other countries. This makes it very different and challenging.
What is the direction that the German government is currently setting for DLR and the role of DLR in the industry?
Four years ago, when the current government was established, there was a debate concerning the future role of DLR. The question was whether DLR should be a normal research institution or whether it should be an institution that is relevant for political, strategic approaches to the market. It was decided that DLR should be a strategic instrument of the German government, especially for aeronautics and space. Therefore, it was moved from the Ministry of Education and Research to the Ministry of Economics and Technology. Minister zu Guttenberg is rather new in his position and there are other problems, therefore I totally accept that the focus of his work is right now on the financial crisis. .
What do you believe are the flagship projects that established DLR’s national and international reputation?
DLR is covering the whole range from basic research to applied research. That means that we are working in several fields that are very much ahead of today’s products and current utilization. For example, the exploration of space is well beyond actual utilization needs. In other fields we are very close to the market. We have developed a radar satellite which was launched in 2007. This satellite is now scanning the earth with its special SAR technology radar. We are always in between the different actions. Therefore, if you are asking for flagship projects I would certainly name TerraSAR-X, the first German space project implemented in a public/private partnership, as well as Galileo, GMES and the International Space Station in the field of space. If you look to the field of aeronautics you have to know that DLR has the largest civilian European fleet of aircraft and helicopters which we are using to develop new technologies such as aerodynamic aspects, cabin atmosphere , and the development of fuel cells for use in aircraft. Aircraft create CO2 and noise emissions, can be reduced by fuel cells which substitute the APU. The fuel cell delivers enough electric power for the taxiing by using electric driven wheels. We are also active in the field of energy and transport. In transport are running a speed train project in which we apply our competence in wind tunnels and material science to design the next generation of high speed trains. In the field of energy I would like to mention our achievements in the field of concentrated solar power generation as well as chemical solar energy generation in which we transform direct radiation into energy through the separation of hydrogen and water. This hydrogen can then be used as a fuel. Also, combining all the different actions, we are developing hybrid power stations where we apply our competence in gas turbines and fuels cells to come to new approaches. It is always the combination of different actions which leads to DLR-flagship projects.
It seems that your scientists have a lot of freedom to focus on different areas surrounding core aerospace research activities…
We like to have synergies between the different areas, but our researchers are not fully free to do what they like to do. We have a programmatic approach based on five main programs: aeronautics, space, energy, transport and security. The institutes within DLR get their money through program directors who define programs such as Next Generation Trains, combining the different institutes to find better solutions. Each year a Program Committee defines the programmatic lines for the institute.
Why is DLR spread our over so many locations, and how do you manage to create the desired synergy effects?
DLR has thirteen sites in Germany, as well as offices in Paris, Brussels, and Washington, and subsidiaries in Almeria in southeast Spain, and in Indonesia. All these locations have their specific competences. The fact that we have thirteen locations in Germany directly reflects the history of DLR. We started 103 years ago and with a range of different institutions in West Germany, which were eventually united in DLR. After the reunification of Germany the activities in East Germany also merged with DLR. Therefore our organization structure is largely based on historical reasons, and we are very happy with this history. Germany is not like France, with one centre being Paris, but we also have the Länder. We are present in several of the Länder, so we also get financial support from these Länder: 10% of our funding comes from the Länder and 90% comes from the federal government.
Given your research mission shouldn’t DLR’s international locations have been in industry centres such as Seattle, Houston and Toulouse rather than political centres such as Washington, Paris and Brussels?
There are very simple explanations. Brussels is because of the European Commission. Paris is because of the European Space Agency . Washington is because of NASA, the headquarters of NASA is not in Houston but in Washington.
The 'Vision 2020' has a number of targets for the aerospace industry, such as reducing the cost of air transport by 30%, reduce accident rates by 80%, increasing the volume of European air traffic to 16 million flights per year, reducing carbon dioxide and nitrogen oxide emissions by 50% and 80%, respectively, and reducing perceived noise levels by 50%. What is the difference that DLR wants to make in the sector by pursuing this vision?
As you know, our Vision 2020 is linked to the European ACARE Environmental Targets for 2020. It is a very ambitious plan to pursue these reductions in emissions while at the same time realizing the increasing mobility demand from the public. It is really unique that all the European countries came together and put this vision for the field of aeronautics on the table. We are now trying to realize this vision through both, national and European activities. Of course, these very ambitious targets will have and have already an influence on the market. The goals are well defined and you cannot just say that you want to be more economic or ecologic, but you have to measure what you are doing against these targets. I would like to have similar goals for all of our fields of investigation, that would be fine, but it is rather difficult for instance for space where you do not have a clear market vision.
Do you researchers find such clear performance targets motivating or limiting their creativity?
The researchers get even clearer targets from our Program Directors. They decide, together with the institutes and researchers, even more rigorous targets for the next three, four or five years. This is good for researchers, they like it, and it does not at all slow down their creativity.
Aerospace research and development is a competitive activity that encompasses both international cooperation and international competition. Where do you place the balance between cooperation and competition?
Cooperation and competition begin both with ‘co’, which means that you do not have to decide either or, you can have both at the same time. For instance, we have very strong cooperation with ONERA in France, the NLR in the Netherlands, NASA, CNES, and we are a member of the European Space Agency. Within ESA we are working together with other institutions with common money on competitive projects. Every year the member states collectively contribute more that €3 billion into ESA for defined projects. The special feature of ESA is that if you pay 20% for a certain project your country will receive 20% in return. From a naive point of view this should not work because it is pure competition in a cooperative way, but it works perfectly. We always agree on our projects. For instance, the next weather satellites will be paid for by Germany 34% and France 34%, so both countries together will have 68% and therefore will be the primes for all the activities in third generation weather satellites. We are defining our main goals, which might be different from the priorities of other countries, and sometimes may lead to competition. This is the case in the field of weather satellites where Italy has COSMO SKYMED and we have TERRASAR X, so there is competition but it is friendly competition.
Is this an interesting model for wider application at the EU level?
The EU is a different thing. It receives funding which is then distributed in full competition, not in cooperation. The EU can learn very much from ESA.
To which extent is DLR cooperating with China?
With China the situation in aeronautics and space is rather complicated. The pure scientific approach is easy, but for areas such as space we have to face the question about the balance between military and civil applications. We have to follow the political line of our country. We entered into an agreement with China’s space engineering office to open this area for scientists, and maybe we will also develop cooperation in other areas in the future. For the moment, all cooperation is purely scientific. For instance, scientific scientists participate in our parabolic flights.
China is currently establishing a domestic aviation industry, what is you perspective on the challenges that China will have to overcome to succeed in this ambition, and which contribution could DLR in this process?
There is enough to be done in the future in terms of cooperation in the fields of aeronautics, space, energy and transport. All fields in which we have competence are of major interest for cooperation with China, but we need to have the right foundation for that cooperation. For instance, if China is destroying a satellite, even through it was China’s own satellite, to show their competence in this field this is not an easy step for us. By destroying the satellite debris was caused in space, and we already have enough debris in space. There are already more than 600,000 part of a size of one centimetre and bigger surrounding our tiny world. So we are not very happy about this way of showing power.
Is it fair to criticize China for adding to the debris in space while the vast majority of present debris has not been caused by China?
You are right, there is enough debris already. But this is no excuse to produce even more!
In addition to cooperating with international research institutions, DLR is also working with the private sector. Have these commercial activities affected the funding structure, research priorities or ambitions in any way?
The government expects us to be of strategic value for the German economy. Therefore it is important to have a very close link to industry to understand what their necessities and needs are. At the same time it enables us to verify that the needs that we identify correspond with the actual needs of industry. We have a special position: Through our research we try to reinforce the industry in Germany in Europe, and sometimes we go even a bit further. For instance, industry is not that interested in gaining more knowledge of emissions, but as an institution with responsibility for Germany we are. With our special HALO-research aircraft (HALO stands for high altitude long range), we can investigate emissions in the atmosphere to understand what can be done in the future to reduce emissions not only through new technologies but also by where to fly. The position of DLR between industry and society is very demanding and challenging, we have to support industry and society at the same time.
Industry is very much interested in reducing fuel consumption of airplanes. At the same time we are looking at ways to reduce noise emissions which is a particular issue at the location of airports. This is a very good example of how we draw a balance.
Does the private sector get its best researchers from DLR, or are you also able to attract researchers with an industry background?
We give our best researchers to industry; this is part of the job we have to do for Germany. Getting the best researchers from industry is rather difficult because of the income level that we can offer. We can offer attractive jobs and nice research opportunities, but we cannot offer large salaries.
As a former President of a university you must have seen some of your best professors starting to teach in China, at least on a part time basis. Would you like to see something similar happening at DLR?
To understand the world the best you can do is to go to other countries and stay there for more than just a few weeks to understand the cultural behaviour. If you understand that cultural behaviour you will be able to better approach society and industry. For instance, I stayed in Japan for one year and therefore I cannot only understand Japan but I can also more easily understand other countries and other societies. Therefore, our internal vision is that all of our researchers should spend a certain time in another country.
In which areas do you see the most promising opportunities for cooperation between DLR and China, and what are your expectations for the development of the relationship between China and Germany in the coming years?
I think in all fields that are defined by the Vision 2020 for the aerospace industry, such as reducing fuel consumption, increasing safety, reducing carbon dioxide and nitrogen oxide emissions, reducing noise emissions, and increasing safety while reducing the burden on passengers. Sometimes when you take a plane these days you spend more time at the terminal for the security check than the total flight time. We should try to improve the overall situation.
Worldwide we share the opinion that the future development of our societies, not only our industries, depends strongly on excellent research and development. Therefore, cooperation in the field of research and development is a global challenge and opportunity in all our areas of competence. In full agreement with German government policy we would like to intensify our cooperation with China.
| Company: | 德国宇航研究院 |
| Position: | Chairman of the Executive Board |
| Country: | 德国 |